Dialogue with Scientists: The Question of Space and the Self

In an illuminating conversation at Brockwood Park in 1984, renowned philosopher and spiritual teacher Jiddu Krishnamurti engaged in deep dialogue with distinguished scientists exploring the profound themes of inner space, consciousness, and the nature of the self. Among the participants were notable figures such as theoretical physicist David Bohm, psychiatrist David Shainberg, and neuroscientist John Hidley.

David Bohm (1917–1992) was a renowned theoretical physicist whose contributions spanned quantum physics, philosophy of mind, and consciousness. Born on December 20, 1917, Bohm was famous for his collaboration with Einstein and his profound dialogues with Krishnamurti. His holistic view of physics paralleled many spiritual insights, emphasizing the interconnectedness of all things.

David Shainberg (1932–1993) was a prominent psychiatrist and psychoanalyst deeply interested in exploring the intersection between psychoanalysis, spirituality, and meditation. Shainberg contributed significantly to dialogues around consciousness, particularly examining how Eastern spiritual traditions inform Western psychological theories.

John Hidley, a respected neuroscientist, focused his work on the brain’s function and its relationship to behavior and perception. Hidley was particularly interested in the implications of neurological science for understanding consciousness and human experience.

During this seminar, the discussion unfolded around the metaphor of a ‘monkey,’ representing the self or ego, and its relationship to psychological space. Krishnamurti emphasized that despite external spaciousness, whether physical as vast mountain ranges or psychological expansiveness through meditation or introspection, the self—symbolized by the monkey—remains inherently limited and constrained by its nature.

The scientists, including Bohm and Shainberg, challenged and explored the implications of this insight. They debated whether providing more space—metaphorically speaking—to the monkey would tame or merely placate it temporarily. Krishnamurti maintained his point: the monkey, the self, remains limited by definition and cannot generate the profound inner space necessary for true transformation.

Bohm clarified that attitudes or changing values alone wouldn’t resolve the fundamental limitation of the self. Shainberg suggested exploring one’s attitude towards this internal space, using the analogy of opening curtains to reveal the sky already present. However, Krishnamurti contended this metaphor, emphasizing that merely changing attitudes or cultivating awareness does not remove the root cause—the self’s inherent limitation and divisiveness.

Ultimately, Krishnamurti posed a profound challenge: Can the monkey, the self, create its own space? His conclusion was that the self, bound by memory, thought, and experience, is intrinsically limited and therefore incapable of generating infinite inner space. Only with the cessation of the self, he suggested, would infinite inward space emerge naturally, unbounded by the limitations of identity and thought.

This dialogue at Brockwood Park beautifully illustrates the depth of intersection between science and spirituality, encouraging profound introspection about consciousness, identity, and our inherent potential for transformative inner freedom.